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→‎Intolerable behaviour by new user:Hublolly: leave this talk page if you can't even be positive
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:I will hold off editing untill this heat has calmed down. [[User:Hublolly|Hublolly]] ([[User talk:Hublolly|talk]]) 00:16, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
:I will hold off editing untill this heat has calmed down. [[User:Hublolly|Hublolly]] ([[User talk:Hublolly|talk]]) 00:16, 10 July 2012 (UTC)


::Hublolly - according to my tutors even if one has a PHD it ''still'' takes a '''several years (10? maybe 15?)''' ''before'' you have proficiency in the subject and can answer anything on the spot. '''It’s really bad that YOU screwed up every page you have [[special:contributions/Rschwieb|edited]]''', then come along to throw insult to Rschwieb who has a near-infinite amount of knowledge on hard-core mathematical abstractions (which is NOT the easy side of maths) compared to Maschen, me, and yes - even the "invincible you", and given that Rschwieb ''is'' a very good-faith, productive, and constructive editor and certainly prepared to engage in discussions to share thoughts on the subject with like-minded people (the opposite of yourself). [[User:F=q(E+v^B)|'''F''' <font color="orange">=</font>]] [[User talk:F=q(E+v^B)|''q''('''E+v×B''')]][[Special:Contributions/F=q(E+v^B)|<font color="orange">⇄</font> ∑<sub>''i</sub>c<sub>i</sub>'']] 00:30, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
::Hublolly - according to my tutors even if one has a PHD it ''still'' takes '''several years (10? maybe 15?)''' ''before'' you have proficiency in the subject and can answer anything on the . '''It’s really bad that YOU screwed up every page you have [[special:contributions/|edited]]''', then come along to throw insult to Rschwieb who has a near-infinite amount of knowledge on hard-core mathematical abstractions (which is NOT the easy side of maths) compared to Maschen, me, and yes - even the "invincible you", and given that Rschwieb ''is'' a very good-faith, productive, and constructive editor and certainly prepared to engage in discussions to share thoughts on the subject with like-minded people (the opposite of yourself). [[User:F=q(E+v^B)|'''F''' <font color="orange">=</font>]] [[User talk:F=q(E+v^B)|''q''('''E+v×B''')]][[Special:Contributions/F=q(E+v^B)|<font color="orange">⇄</font> ∑<sub>''i</sub>c<sub>i</sub>'']] 00:30, 10 July 2012 (UTC)


:::I DIDN'T intend to persionally attack Rschwieb. [[User:Hublolly|Hublolly]] ([[User talk:Hublolly|talk]]) 08:32, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
:::I DIDN'T intend to persionally attack Rschwieb. [[User:Hublolly|Hublolly]] ([[User talk:Hublolly|talk]]) 08:32, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Revision as of 17:44, 10 July 2012

Noob Links for myself

Changes

Thank you, Rschwieb, you've done a great job. You've been very kind. Serialsam (talk) 12:39, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal to merge removed. Comment added at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Outline_of_algebraic_structures#Merge_proposal Yangjerng (talk) 14:03, 13 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Flat space gravity

Archive

I've not been working on the geometric algebra article for the time being. That does not mean I think it is in good shape; I think it still needs lots of work. I'll probably look at it again in time. I'm guessing that you may have some interest in learning about GR. If you want to exercise your (newly acquired?) geometric algebra skills, there might be something to interest you: a development of the math of relativistic gravitation in a Minkowski space background. Variations on this theme have been tried before, with some success. There are related articles around (Linearized gravity, Gravitoelectromagnetism). It might be fun to get an accurate feel of the maths behind gravity. Aside from a few presumptious leaps, the maths shows initial promise of being simple. Interested? Quondumtalkcontr 17:47, 8 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've been having a good time reading Macdonald's survey on relativity. I finally feel I'm getting some small footholds. There are many equations in physics I would like to understand, both in the classical way and in the GA way. If you think this might be the "easiest" place to start, I would be happy to start here :) Rschwieb (talk) 18:30, 8 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm guessing you are referring to his recent "General Relativity in a Nutshell" (also called "Elementary General Relativity")? I've still to read it, but it looks like it might be very readible. It might be instructive to develop the ideas from postulates, especially if it is developed from scratch. It'll be helpful if you first get a feel for the EM (electromagnetic) formulae. I'm also on a learning curve. I'll create the page User:Quondum/sandbox/Relativistic fields in the next few hours, and we can take it from there. I'm certainly aiming at it being "easy". Quondumtalkcontr 20:27, 8 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I learned elementary classical mechanics and the vector calculus to do mechanics, but I never have learned Maxwell's equations. Some people's plight is that they grasp the physical situation, but not the advanced mathematics, but I have the opposite problem. For me, the gap between abstract mathematics and application is broad. You're right, I'm reading the "nutshell" article. It's been quite a boon, and I think it will be an excellent stepping stone. Rschwieb (talk) 22:46, 8 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I am somewhere in between. I love to work from a more "mathematical" (abstract) perspective, but really am only at an undergraduate level. I am fascinated by the elegant synergy between maths and physics, e.g. that Maxwell's equations may be expressed in GA as ∇F=J. The math also gives one exceptional insights into physics (e.g. the symmetry of the time and space coordinates). Physics seems to be a good way to focus one's math. See what you think of the page I've started in my sandbox. The only physics needed is identification of the model. Quondumtalkcontr 05:25, 9 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
One question on the title you chose for this subsection. Can gravity exist in flat space? My (amateur) impression was that gravity is a result of curviture caused by the presence of mass. Let me know if I'm off, or maybe you mean something else in the title. Rschwieb (talk) 15:45, 9 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Very insightful of you. In GR, the postulate is that gravity is the curvature of spacetime, and in that context, the answer would be "No". What I am proposing is to replace the GR postulate with another (two others: flatness and that gravity is a field in that space). GR has some problems of its own, such as that the question of global energy conservation is extremely problematic (according to Penrose). The flat spacetime model almost certainly will not suffer from that problem, but is also presumably not equivalent to GR. Quondumtalkcontr 16:30, 9 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

OK. This again reminds me that I don't know where to begin :) I guess any start is good. I'd like to understand whatever important models of electromagnetism and gravitation that exist. Rschwieb (talk) 17:15, 9 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

But before we move on, could we tackle the difference between the (1,3) and (3,1) geometric algebras? It's strange because the +--- and -+++ sign conventions seem to have been on an equal footing before, and yet if the geometric algebras are different, that would seem to indicate something important. What leads do you have? Of course we can begin with the fact that C3,1(R)≅M4(R) and C1,3(R)≅M2(H). Let me know if you feel this warrants a talk page of its own. Rschwieb (talk) 15:30, 10 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I doubt it, but who knows. As entire algebras they are not isomorphic, and this is something that has intrigued some people before. Someone has even suggested that some double neutrino emission experiment could resolve which applies. My own feeling is that since we generally use only subspaces of GA and hardly ever the whole algebra, it may well be that there is no difference on the applicable subspaces. One of my targets (but I forget where I wrote a note to this effect found: see first bullet on my trial ideas page) was to determine whether the two algebras were totally isomorphic on the relevant subspaces. My feeling is that they probably are. I suggest deferring this. Will chat later; I'm on my way out. Quondumtalkcontr 16:14, 10 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, a little bit more on the subject. Then you can decide whether you'd like to discuss it; I'd be happy to. It is something I'd like to look into at some point, and you might feel you want to explore it now. My idea is this: the metric on the space is a matter of convention anyway; whether a vector squares to the algebra's identity or its negation probably makes no difference. You just adapt the signs in your formulae. So what is "spacelike" is detemined by the majority sign in the metric. I think one will be able to show that show that the math is equivalent over vectors, versors acting on the algebra, and blades generally. The wedge product is identical (it is not affected by the metric). General elements probably never occur or interact. If you want to consider the detail, tell me and I'll create a page or a section in my sandbox for it. The following might be of interest: [1], and a related presentation: [2] Quondumtalkcontr 22:13, 10 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Great, this looks like interesting reading, if I can get around to it. It just seems like if the algebras are this different, then the geometry they describe might be different. On the other hand, maybe Clifford algebras are "overstructured" and even though they aren't identical as algebras, they might be identical for the purposes of geometric algebra. Rschwieb (talk) 04:10, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Very nicely put. I would be very interested in finding out exactly where the two algebras are equivalent, and hence exactly where the boundary is on the math as a model for geometry. This would also be useful inasmuch as it would suggest a specific area of investigation for a possibly necessary change to the geometric interpretation; I imagine that this is effectively how the field of quantum mechanics arose. Spinors are a nice example of where a CA works but a straightforward geometric interpretation fails. Rotate an electron 360° on any axis, and you don't end up with the same thing, but with its negation. Geometrically there is no evident way to deduce thus, except that a 360° rotation is topologically distinct from 0°, whereas a 720° rotation is equivalent 0° (holds in any number of dimensions). This corresponds to an experimentally observable effect. Quondumtalkcontr 05:50, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
One thing Macdonald does not do a lot of is give you an idea of how to translate cross products into geometric algebra. Do you know any tricks/identities that are useful to translate between the two? Maybe there is something in that paper on products we were reading, but I don't remember anything in depth. Rschwieb (talk) 04:09, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The two are directly related in ℝ3 (see here and here; cross product is chiral, wedge product is not). Given e1×e2=e3, e12=e22=e32=+1, a and b both vectors, we get:
and .
Also easily rewritten in terms of components: a mapping between components of a vector (×) and bivector (∧) — Quondumtalkcontr 12:48, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Found a new article talking extensively about the 3-1 and 1-3 difference[3]. It'll be a while before I can look at it. Rschwieb (talk) 14:58, 16 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This paper glosses over is the lack of manifest basis independence in some of the formulations. If something like the Dirac equation cannot be formulated in a manifestly basis-independent fashion, it bothers me. The (3,1) and (1,3) difference is significant in this context. I think that to explore this question by reading papers like this one in depth will diffuse your energy with little result; my inclination is to rather explore it from the persective of mathematical principles, e.g.: Can the Dirac equation be written in a manifestly basis-independent form? I suspect that as it stands it can be in the (3,1) algebra but not in (1,3); this approach should be very easy (I have in the past tackled it, and would be interested in following this route again). I also have an intriguing idea for restating the Dirac equation so that it combines all the families (electron, muon, tauon) into one equation, which if successful may give a different "preferred quadratic form" and a almost certainly a very interesting mathematical result. In any event, be aware that the question of the signature is a seriously non-trivial one; do not expect to be able to answer it. Would you like me to map a line of investigation? — Quondumtc 07:15, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Honestly I think even that task sounds beyond me right now :) What I really need is a review of all fundamental operations in linear algebra, in "traditional" fashion side by side with "GA fashion". Then I would need to do the same thing for vector calculus. Maybe at /Basic GA? Ideally I would do some homework problems of this sort, to refamiliarize myself with how all this works. I can't imagine tackling something like Dirac's equation when I don't even fully grasp the form or meaning of Maxwell's equations and Einstein's equations. Rschwieb (talk) 14:05, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I've put together my attempt at a rigorous if simplistic start at /Basic GA to make sure we have the basics sutiably defined. Now perhaps we can work out what it is you want to review – point me in a direction and I'll see whether I can be useful. I'm not too sure how linear algebra will relate to vectors; I tend to use tensor notation as it seems to be more intuitive and can do most linear algebra and more. — Quondumtc 19:44, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

One more thing I've been forgetting to tell you. There's a "rotation" section in the GA article, but no projection or reflection mentioned yet... Think you could insert these sections above Rotations? Rschwieb (talk) 17:12, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, I'll put something in, and then we can panelbeat it. Have you had a chance to decide whether my "simplistic (but rigorous)" on GA basics approach is worth using? — Quondumtc 21:20, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I haven't had a chance to look at it yet. I've got a lot of stuff to do between now and February so it might be a while. Feel free to work on other projects in the meantime :) Rschwieb (talk) 13:17, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Direction of Geometric algebra article

Update: I noticed the Projections section the fundamental identity is used to rewrite am-1 as the sum of dot and wedge. Is there a fast way to explain why this identity should hold for inverses of vectors? Rschwieb (talk) 13:17, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Heh-heh. I had expected objections other than that, but I'm not saying which... — Quondumtc 15:15, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I'm not handy with the nuts and bolts yet. Another thing I was going to propose is that Geometric calculus can probably fill its own page. We should get a userspace draft going. That would help make the GA article more compact. Rschwieb (talk) 15:23, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It makes sense that a separate Geometric calculus page would be worthwhile, and that it should be linked to as the main article. What is currently in the article is very short, and probably would not be made much more compact, but should remain as a thumbnail of the main article. I think the existing disambiguation page should simply be replaced: it is not necessary. — Quondumtc 16:27, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I know what's there now is nice, but consider that it might be better just to have a sentence or two about what GC accomplishes and a Main template to the GC article. To me this seems like the best of all worlds, contentwise. Rschwieb (talk) 16:42, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Now you're talking to the purist in me. This is exactly how I feel it should be: with the absolute minimum of duplication. Developing computer source code for maintainability hones this principle to a discipline. There is a strong tendency amongst some to go in the opposite direction, and an even higher principle is that we all need to find a consensus, so I usually don't push my own ideal. — Quondumtc 08:31, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

On one hand, I do appreciate economy (as in proofs). On the other hand, as a teacher, I also have to encourage my students to use standard notation and to "write what they mean". If I don't do that then they inevitably descend into confusion because what they have written is nonsense and they can't see their way out. At times like that, extra writing is worth the cost. Here in a WP article though, when elaboration is a click away, we have some flexibility to minimize extra text. Some people do print this material :) Rschwieb (talk) 13:08, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A complete sidetrack, but related: I found these interesting snippets by Lounesto, and though they might interest you: [4], [5], [6]. — Quondum 09:55, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Defining "abelian ring"

Extended content

The article section Idempotence#Idempotent ring elements defines an abelian ring as "A ring in which all idempotents are central". Corroboration can be found, e.g. here. Since this is a variation on the other meanings associated with abelian, it seems this should be defined, either in a section in Ring (mathematics) or in its own article Abelian ring. It seems more common to define an abelian ring as a ring in which the multiplication operation is commutative, so this competing definition should be mentioned too. Your feeling? — Quondum 09:14, 21 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I ran into this problem when writing that part. Here are my chief considerations:
  1. I found the usage in Googlebooks to be split about evenly
  2. I found the usage among abstract algebraists overwhelmingly the "central idempotents" version
  3. The other version seemed more common in engineering/information disciplines and some C* algebra and analysis texts by foreign authors.
  4. To say "xy=yx for all x,y in R", "commutative ring" is far and away the most established and standard term. (In grad school we always thought that using Abelian for commutative here was a naive mistake, but then I found the texts which mentioned both.)
  5. I don't oppose an Abelian ring article, but it would be a bit short and might be challenging to cite. (I can think of several things to say, only one citation comes to mind.) Mentioning the two usages would definitely a top priority in the intro. If you think this article is worth creating I'll be happy to help. Rschwieb (talk) 13:39, 21 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • If I understand you, the term "abelian ring" will mean one or the other with similar probability, but when a commutative ring is meant, it will only rarely be called an abelian ring. Ergo: rings with only central idempotents are not discussed in the literature nearly as often as commutative rings are.
  • Since there is already an article Commutative ring, a new article would have as its subject rings in which every idempotent is central (with a disambiguating hatnote as appropriate). Two questions arise:
    (a) is this worth
    (i) its own article,
    (ii) a section under Ring (mathematics) (that someone may later branch out as its own article),
    (iii) a mere mention in Ring (mathematics), or
    (iv) nothing at all?
    (b) if we were to create such an article, would "Abelian ring" be an appropriate title, or is there some other term that gets used more, is less ambiguous or might be more suitable for some reason? Why should the absence of non-central idempotents be of any interest (we must answer this if we write anything)? AFAICT central idempotents split a ring into direct sums (and every ring is split by the trivial idempotents into the trivial ring and the ring itself; I love trivial cases), e.g. split-complex numbers, which is about all I would be able to say about them. Perhaps something about how the ordering of idempotents in such a ring works, but that may be WP:OR. There might be something about central idempotents forming an integral domain or something like that (I'm guessing wildly here; I do not even know what the term means).
  • My preference for (a) leans towards (i) or (ii), maybe the latter, but this depends upon its noteworthiness in ots own right.
  • On (b), if there is no rival term to describe a "ring in which every idempotent is central", then "abelian ring" must be it. Where are such rings treated as a class, except in the study of idempotents? — Quondum 11:04, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes the use of abelian to mean central idempotents is mostly in research papers, and I've never seen a competing adjective for this usage. These rings are definitely not notable enough for (ii) or (iii). They could have their own article but I think it might be pretty stubby. The first place I found "abelian ring" in a text was in Goodearl's von Neumann Regular Rings. He establishes that a VNR ring is reduced iff Abelian.
Central idempotents correspond to ring direct summands of the ring, yes. It is a very strong condition: the full matrix ring of square matrices over a field is abelian iff it is the 1 by 1 matrix ring.
The only idempotents in domains and local rings are 0 and 1, so they are trivially abelian. Nontrivial idempotents are zero divisors, so they can't exist in domains. Rschwieb (talk) 18:49, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Err... – what am I missing? Surely if abelian ring is not notable enough for (ii) or (iii), then it would not be notable enough for (i)? — Quondum 19:19, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what your reasoning is, but the way I see it: even obscure topics can be worthy of wiki pages, but obscure topics do not deserve to waste space in their parent article. If one obscure notion got in, then 10,000 more obscure notions would go in too.
If "adjoint morphic transversalism" was an obscure notion in category theory, maybe it deserves a page, but it would be nonsense to put it in Category theory.
I think if "abelian ring" is not given its own article, there is no better place for it than where it currently is. Rschwieb (talk) 20:30, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Okay, I'm following you, and agree with the principle. What you mean is that an obscure subtopic should not be directly mentioned in its great-grandpappy article. However, this is not at variance with the idea that in a densely cross-linked medium, a chain of traceability should exist in both directions. Thus, it should be mentioned in the article of the slightly less obscure topic one level up: its immediate parent(s).
  • The immediate parents of abelian rings (as per the meaning we seem to have settled on) would I guess be idempotence and perhaps representation/classification/decomposability of rings. Is the latter a topic independent of idempotence? If so, the traceability should exist in that direction too.
  • My inclination, if some reference has covered the topic adequately (even if it is only a primary reference), is to consider a separate article, using that reference as basis. If it is merely mentioned in passing in texts, then I prefer that we should focus only on clarifying it where it is in Idempotence.
  • Why I feel some clarification is needed is that its presence immediately suggests unanswered questions, such as why the absence of non-central idempotents from the ring should serve as a useful basis for classification (as is implied by the use of a name, "abelian ring").
  • And as a side topic, the mention in Idempotence#Role in decompositions appears to be inconsistent at first glance, or at least I cannot connect the concept of "a unique idempotent ... such that ..." to "a central idempotent", the latter being what I would have expected to have the property given. But it is murky to me: modules seems to be a more general classification than rings (over fields). Should the mention of modules and rings be separated a bit more in this section? — Quondum 06:52, 25 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It seems like there isn't much to say about central idempotents. They correspond to ring decompositions of a ring. To say that all idempotents are central implies that any one-sided ideal generated by idempotents (any module direct summand, for instance) is actually two-sided. For von Neumann regular rings, this means that all right and left ideals are actually two-sided. I'm not aware of an exhaustive resource on the topic, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.
The problem with the "Abelian" condition is its strength. Very basic types of rings, like semisimple rings and von Neumann regular rings, are usually rife with noncentral idempotents.
I like the way modules and rings are presented together in the Role in Decomposition section. The idempotents flagging module direct summands do not have to be central.
I'll be waiting for feedback on specific points in the section from you. Maybe some things need clarification or citation. Rschwieb (talk) 14:31, 25 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]


I feel a bit like I'm being thrown in the deep end without my water wings. I can't think much beyond rings at this stage.
  1. The five subsections under Idempotence#Idempotent ring elements do not strictly relate to rings. I suggest that this section should be renamed Idempotents in abstract algebras, and a subheading Rings below it should be inserted.
  2. Do idempotents in rings always occur in orthogonal pairs?
  3. The statement starting "A ring in which all idempotents are central..." is not directly relevant to the point in which it is stated – it is really just a follow-on. Should it not be added as a by-the-way type statement at the end of the list?
  4. There seems to be a super-strong connection between idempotents, zero divisors and (when 2 is invertible) involutions. It somehow feels this has not been presented graphically enough. Although I am pretty sure there are zero divisors that are not idempotents. Do nilpotent elements tie in with idempotents?
  5. I've seen involutions used to decompose Clifford algebras (involution → idempotent pair → decomposition) as though every involution leads to a decomposition as a direct sum. Is this the case? There seems to be something wrong with this, since the idempotents must be central. Can non-central idempotents usefully decompose a ring?
  6. Should I be looking up endomorphisms? I think I just strained a meta-muscle.
Quondum 17:48, 25 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Re1: When I look at the subsections, and they all look like they are concerned with ring idempotents. I don't think relabeling it with "algebras" makes any sense, because algebras are just special rings.
  • Re2: Yes, if e is idempotent, then 1-e is idempotent and orthogonal to e.
  • Re3: There might be some room for improvement here. Instead of listing things like "abelian ring" and "boolean ring" next to the "type of idempotents" entries, we could keep the current list strictly for idempotent types, then have a section for stuff like abelian rings and boolean rings later. I'll definitely take a whack at that.
  • Re4: I am rather ignorant about involutions, other than the fact they are isomorphisms between R and the opposite ring Rop. This could be a place for improvement. The only nilpotent idempotent is 0! Another fact that I'm stating vaguely and incorrectly: idempotents will typically be outside of the Jacobson radical, nilpotents will typically be inside.
  • Re5: Any idempotent decomposes the ring R as R=eR⊕(1-e)R and R=Re⊕R(1-e) into modules. If, in addition, e is central, then R=eR⊕(1-e)R=eRe⊕(1-e)R(1-e)=Re⊕R(1-e). You can check the decomposition in the middle is actually a ring decomposition (in addition to being a left and right module decomposition.) Good question about which involutions give rise to central idempotents: I don't immediately know but it seems like we can figure out the answer :)
  • Re6: endomorphism of M just means homomorphism from M to M.
  • Update: Your comments on involution helped me spot that it was unclear that module involutions were meant, and not ring involutions. I'll try to line this up with your question about Clifford algebras soon.
  • Update: Any idempotent will give rise to a module decomposition, though not necessarily a ring decomposition. It looks like central elements that act as involutions correspond to central idempotents. Rschwieb (talk) 02:35, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  1. re Re1: Role in decompositions immediately starts talking about modules, which is a different class than rings, hence why it does not seem to fit under rings; I know it then talks about an endomorphism ring, but this is not an obvious connection to "ring elements" in the section heading. And I meant abstract algebra, not algebra (over a field). The first sentence in this section makes no sense to me. It mentions "idempotents of R" and then again ""idempotent e in E". There seems to be mixing of the meta-layers (E and R), whereas no motivation has even been given as to why they can be considered isomorphic, or what the map ER is.
  2. re Re2: So I'll assume that in rings, idempotents elements occur in orthogonal pairs of distinct elements, with the isolated case of the trivial ring in which the elements of the pair are not distinct. It may occur, I imagine, that elements of different pairs are also orthogonal. By the way, how is "orthogonal" defined here? I assume by ab=ba=0. This is confusing, because it is not the definition in, for example, a Clifford algebra, where it is ab+ba=0, and then only elements of the generating vector space.
  3. re Re4 and your edit: I'm not entirely happy with the last change you have made. You seem to have lost the sense of an involution as an element, i.e. an element that squares to 1 under a binary operation (in a ring, by definition the multiplication operation). The connection between an involution and a pair of idempotents is as elements of a ring (as I see it), whether this be an endomorphism ring or otherwise. Think of an involution as any element x of a ring such that x2=1. From such an element (or its additive inverse), we can easily construct two idempotents (subject to the invertibility of 2:=1+1). No mention of endomorphisms required, I'd guess.
  4. re Re5: Module decomposition versus ring decomposition – ouch, I'll have to figure out what this means. I am not familiar with modules.
  5. In general, I'm way over my head here. Module vs. ring involutions, Jacobson radicals, endomorphism rings ... yikes. — Quondum 09:30, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • The last points 1 and 3 need to be tackled with a single answer. Stick with me here: the entire section revolves around idempotent elements in the endomorphism ring E=EndR(M) of a module M. Idempotent ring elements of E are precisely idempotent homomorphisms on M. Bottom line: idempotent elements of E correspond to decompositions of M. Now in the special case M=R, the ring R is naturally isomorphic to E=EndR(R): the endomorphisms are given by left (or right) multiplication by ring elements. In this case, then the endomorphisms we were discussing are exactly idempotent elements of R(which are hard at work decomposing the module R).
  • Last point 2: Yes, ab=ba=0 is what orthogonal means here. It's possible that this does not jive with geometric orthogonality in the CA (do you have something I can read about what you are alluding to?).
  • Last point 4: I think you will catch on quickly. I'll try to find time to summarize the situation clearly, but here is a sketch of internal direct sums: if you have seen M=A⊕B written for a module M, then A and B are submodules of M such that A+B=M and A∩B=0. These conditions amount to: Every element of m of M is uniquely expressible as a+b for some a in A and b in B. For rings, it is exactly analogous same: if you see R=S⊕T, then you know that S and T are rings, and that S+T=R and S∩T=0. Again, this amounts to elements of R being uniquely expressible as s+t for some s in S and t in T. Do note that the type of subobjects have changed. This is all that separates "module decompositions" from "ring decompositions" in our discussion. (I would like to tell you sometime how this is isomorphic to the external direct sum A⊕B, and explain that internal direct sums are just a reinterpretation external ones.)
  • Last point 5: No worries, just enjoy the ride. You'll learn plenty, and there's no obligation to learn everything. Rschwieb (talk) 13:27, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Re My edits to idempotents page: I realize an idempotent element and an idempotent operation are two different things, but they both depend entirely on the binary operation. The unary-binary split seems most logical. I don't think anything is gained by singleing out elements. Rschwieb (talk) 17:45, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]


  1. I think you get the idea that in some aspects the article is not written to make sense to someone who has only the necessary knowledge to understand what it is saying. That is to say, it can be written to be mostly understood without already knowing about endomorphisms etc., but at the moment it requires such knowledge to make any sense of those same aspects. Maybe give a bash at fixing that rather than explaining it to me?
  2. I'm surprised you want stuff on orthogonality. Orthogonality on a vector space seems to be defined in terms of a reflexive bilinear form, which seems to naturally suggest either abba=0 or ab+ba=0 as a definition of orthogonality on, at least, the generating vector subspace of most K-algebras. Anyhow, it is interesting to note that orthogonality defined by ab=ba=0 ensures orthogonality in terms of any bilinear form defined in terms of a K-bilinear multiplication in a subspace of a ring, i.e. one implies the other over the latter's range of applicability, and might thus be naturally related. I'm surprised I haven't seen the concept of orthogonality in this sense ("centrally orthogonal"?) before; it does not appear at all in the article on orthogonality.
  3. I like the idea of a decomposition defined in terms of "uniquely expressible as". Worth getting familiar with. But that is clearly not as powerful as "uniquely decomposable as", which seems to tie in with idempotents.
  4. I disagree on your split on the types of idempotent. We are defining three distinct types. Of course they're related. Actually, the unary operation and the element are most closely related - they are in fact identical in some sense. The binary operation is the odd one out. In any event, it is disconcerting for the reader to refer to three types of idempotent, and only see two headings. From the reader's perspective, it is important to organize headings by concept, not by relatedness of explanatory detail. — Quondum 18:01, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Re 1+4: OK, please do your best but be judicious. We have a difference of opinion, but I don't really object to anything you've said that strongly. It would be nice if a third and fourth person would comment, eventually.
  • Re 2: Since there are so many notions of orthogonality, I just wanted to know which one you were thinking of. I'm not really sure what to make of ab-ba=0 other than a and b commute, but I have some thoughts on the other one. I always associate orthogonality with a product being zero, such as the inner product. If we're in a real Clifford algebra and selecting vectors a and b, then ab+ba=0 if and only if a⋅b=0 (inner product), so that looks like ordinary "right angles orthogonal" to me. Secondly, in any ring R, ab+ba=[a,b] is a definiton for a Lie bracket on R, so [a,b]=0 could be thought of as orthogonality with respect to the Lie product on the ring.
  • Re 3: To say that a module is uniquely decomposable (with nonzero submodules) would be to say there are precisely two nontrivial idempotents corresponding to the halves of the decomposition. I'm not sure when that happens, but I can give you two examples with integers: the integers modulo 6 and the integers modulo 12 have exactly four idempotents! Rschwieb (talk) 18:54, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Update: Hm I seem to have forgotten that ab-ba is the usual Lie bracket, and not ab+ba! This is getting more interesting all the time. I wonder how these two brackets interplay with the stuff we have been examining. Rschwieb (talk) 01:47, 27 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
re Re 1+4: I was hoping you'd give the editing a bash, with me acting as back-seat driver. I should not be working in main article space on stuff that I feel is wrong, but do not know what is right. However, when I have time, I could put together a sandbox suggestion and let you pull it to shreds. Remember that we are on your talk page: other opinions will be more likely forthcoming if we move it onto the article talk page.
re Re 2: You are suggesting a general concept of orthogonality with respect to a multiplication operator. All the examples listed other than the abstract algebra case may be characterised as reflexive: orthogonality is two-sided. The abstract algebra case does not fit into this picture: it requires two distinct identities to be satisfied simultaneously, and the multiplication is not assumed/required to be reflexive. Also, in general, the multiplication operator in most cases is frequently not the ring multiplication, but rather a related/derived operation that is reflexive. So the case that we are dealing with is atypical in many respects, and the term "orthogonal" is really a different meaning. This does however suggest the concepts "left-orthogonal" and "right-orthogonal", where the combination is what is what we are dealing with. I would not be surprised if these two new concepts are useful, especially in module decompositions.
re Update: Surely the Lie bracket is just another reflexive product? I've seen both ab+ba and abba in physics contexts. They both fit the general picture.
re Re 3: Surely not quite. That's like saying 30 is not uniquely factorizable, because it has more than 2 prime factors. It has a unique prime factorisation, just like the external direct sum RRR has a unique complete decomposition (and by implication has four nontrivial central idempotents). A similar statement could be made for the integers mod 30, or for any squarefree modulus. See the Chinese remainder theorem. — Quondum 07:45, 27 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Orthogonality: Yeah, general ring multiplication can have ab=0 and ba nonzero, and as you said we want a minimum of symmetry if we want to call it orthogonality. The condition "ab=0 implies ba=0" is studied in a paper by P.M. Cohn under the term "reversible ring". Annihilation is studied a lot in ring and module theory, but I'm not sure how many authors use orthogonality as a motivating idea with annihilation.
  2. Unique decomposability: I think I speculated what you meant and arrived at the wrong answer. I will try another answer: the Krull–Schmidt theorem is the main result on unique (in a sense) decomposability of certain modules.
  3. I don't think I have any texts studying orthogonality with the commutator and anticommutator, can you recommend some sources? Rschwieb (talk) 14:22, 27 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • While I have run into commutator products and less often anticommutator products, I don't recall then being associated with the definition of orthogonality, so unfortunately I have no references. To me, orthogonality has always been associated with a bilinear form of some sort (generally symmetric, but that mention of reflexivity has thrown me). It was you that linked it to a more general sort of statement relating to multiplication. And the idea of idempotents being "orthogonal" may be a flash in the pan: an unfortunate term to mean a pair with a particular property. Perhaps we should regard it as an essentially unrelated homonym.
  • Come to think of it, this "one-sided" orthogonality seems pretty useless. Every idempotent a trivially has its orthogonal twin b=1−a such that ab=ba=0. So it is centrality, and not reflexivity/"orthogonality" that is of interest in a true decomposition of rings.
  • It would seem to me that all the idempotents only have to mutually commute (not be central) to produce unique left-decompositions and unique right-decompositions. I think my brain is going to mush on this. The Krull–Schmidt theorem is a little abstract for me at thos time of night. — Quondum 20:23, 27 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The two idempotents being central only comes into play for the ring decomposition, and I think I can convince you where they come from. If R is the direct sum of two rings, say A and B, then obviously the identity elements of A and B are each central idempotents in R, and the ordered pair with the two identities is the identity of R! Conversely if R can be written as the direct sum of ideals A and B, then the identity of R has a unique representation as a+b=1 of elements in those rings. It's easy to see that A and B are ideals of R, and by definition of the decomposition A∩B=0. I'll leave you to prove that a and b are central idempotents and that a is the identity of A and b is the identity of B. Rschwieb (talk) 23:31, 27 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it's kinda obvious when you put it like that. I think I'm getting the feel of an ideal, though this is not necessary to understand the argument, depending on what definition of "direct sum" you use. The "uniqueness" of my left- and right- decompositions seems pretty pointless. The proof you "leave to me" seems so simple that I'm worried I'm using circular arguments. When I originally saw a while back that a subring does not need the same identity element as the ring, I was taken aback. I like the decomposition into prime ideals. In particle physics, spinors (particles) seem to decompose in such a way into "left-handed" and "right-handed" "circular polarizations". — Quondum 06:59, 28 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Decomposition: the Krull Schmidt theorem is the most basic version of what algebraists expect to happen. I can see that the unfamiliarity with direct sum is making it harder to understand, so I'll try to sum it up. Expressing a module as a direct sum basically splits it into neat pieces. The KST says that certain modules can be split into unsplittable pieces, and another such factorization must have factors isomorphic to the first one, in some order.
  • Ideals: Here is how I would try to help a students sort them out. I think we've already discussed that modules are just "vector spaces" over rings other than fields, and you are forced to distinguish between multiplication on the left and right since R doesn't have to be commutative. Just like you can think of a field as a vector space over itself, you can think of a ring as being a module over itself. However, F only has two subspaces (the trivial ones) but a ring may have more right submodules (right subspaces) than just the trivial ones. These are exactly the right ideals.
  • From another point of view, I'm sure you've seen right ideals described as additive subgroups of R which "absorb" multiplication by ring elements on the right, and ideals absorb on both sides. This is a bit different from fields, which again, only have trivial ideals. Even matrix rings over fields only have trivial two-sided ideals (although they have many many onesided ideals).
  • The next thing I find helpful is the analogy of normal subgroups being the kernels of group homomorphisms. Ideals of R are exactly the kernels of ring homomorphisms from R to other rings. Right ideals are precisely the kernels of module homomorphisms from R to other modules. These two types of homomorphisms are of course completely different right? A module homomorphism doesn't have to satisfy f(xy)=f(x)f(y), and a ring homomorphism doesn't have to satisfy f(xr)=f(x)r.
  • Finally in connection with the last point, it's important to know that forming the quotient R/A, while it is always of course a quotient of groups, needs special conditions on A to be anything more. If A is a right ideal, then R/A is a right R module. If A is an ideal, then R/A is a ring. If A has no absorption properties, then R/A may have no special structure beyond being a group. Rschwieb (talk) 15:01, 28 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Tensor calculus in physics? (instead of GA)

(Moved this discussion to User talk:Rschwieb/Physics notes.)

Happy that you moved all that to somewhere more useful. =)

FYI, you might link your subpage User:Rschwieb/Physics notes to my sandbox User:F=q(E+v^B)/sandbox. It will be a summary of the most fundamental, absolutely core, essential principles of physics (right now havn't had much chance to finish it):

  • the fundamental laws of Classical mechanics (CM), Statistical mechanics (SM), QM, EM, GR, and
  • a summary of the dynamical variables in each formalism; CM - vectors (fields), EM - scalars/vectors (fields), GR - 4-vectors/tensors (fields), QM - operators (mostly linear), and
  • some attempt made at scratching the surface of the theory at giddy heights way way up there: Relativistic QM (RQM) (from which QFT, QCD, QED, Electroweak theory, the particle physics Standard model etc. follows).
  • postulates of QM and GR,
  • intrinsic physical concepts: GR - reference frames and Lorentz transformations, non-Euclidean (hyperbolic) spacetime, invariance, simultaneity, QM - commutations between quantum operators and uncertainty relations, Fourier transform symmetry in wavefunctions (although mathematical identities, still important and interesting)
  • symmetries and conservation
  • general concepts of state, phase, configeration spaces
  • some attributes of chaos theory, and how it arises in these theories

There may be errors that need clarification or correction, don't rely on it too heavily right now.

Feel free to remove this notice after linking, if so. =) Best wishes, F = q(E+v×B) ⇄ ∑ici 21:04, 1 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like a nice cheatsheet/study guide. Thanks for alerting me to it! I would not even know of the existence of half of these things, so it's good to have them all in one spot when I eventually come to read about them.
The goal of my physics page is to be a source of pithy statements to motivate the material. I think physicists and engineers have more of these on hand than I do! Rschwieb (talk) 13:47, 2 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That’s very nice of you to say! I promise it will be more than just a cheat sheet though (not taken as an insult! it does currently look lousy). F = q(E+v×B) ⇄ ∑ici 17:52, 2 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

rings in matrix multiplication

Hi, you seem to be an expert in mathematical ring theory. Recently I have been re-writing matrix multiplication because the article was atrocious for its importance. Still the term "ring" is dotted all over the article anyway, maybe you could check its used correctly (instead of "field"? Although they appear to be some type of set satisfying axioms, like a group, field, or vector space, I haven’t a clue what they are in detail, and all these appear to be so similar anyway...). In particular here under "Scalar multiplication is defined:"

"where λ is a scalar (for the second identity to hold, λ must belong to the centre of the ground ring — this condition is automatically satisfied if the ground ring is commutative, in particular, for matrices over a field)."

what does "belong to the centre of the ground ring" mean? Could you somehow re-word this and/or provide relevant links (if any) for the reader? ("Commutative" has an obvious meaning). Thank you... F = q(E+v×B) ⇄ ∑ici 14:21, 8 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I'll take a look at it. You can just think of rings as fields that don't have inverses for all nonzero elements, and don't have to have commutative multiplication. I think I know what the author had in mind in the section you are looking at. Rschwieb (talk) 15:06, 8 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your edits. Although there doesn't seem to be any link to "ground ring"... I can live with it. It’s just that the reader would be better served if one existed. At least you re-worded the text and linked "centre". F = q(E+v×B) ⇄ ∑ici 17:17, 8 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"Ground ring" just means "ring where the coefficients come from". I couldn't think of a link for that, but maybe it should be introduced earlier in the article. Rschwieb (talk) 17:31, 8 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It's not too obvious where to introduce it (a little restructuring is still needed to allow this). The idea is that the elements of the matrix and the multiplying scalars can all be elements of any chosen ring (the ground ring, though I'm not familiar with the term). F, if you are not sure of any details, I'm happy to help too if you wish; I just don't want to get in the way of any rewrite. — Quondum 19:00, 8 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't realize the response, sorry (not on the watchlist... it will be added). No need to worry about the re-write, its pretty much done and you should feel free to edit anyway. =)
IMO wouldn't it be easier to just state the matrix elements are "numbers or expressions", since most people will grip that easier than the term "elements of a ring" every now and then (even though technically necessary), and perhaps describe the properties of matrix products in terms of rings in a separate (sub)section? Well, it's better if you two decide on how to tweak any bits the reader can't easily access or understand... (not sure about you two, but the terminology is really odd: can understand the names "set, group, vector space", but "ring, ground ring, torsonal ring..."? strange names...)
In any case, thanks to both of you for helping. =) F = q(E+v×B) ⇄ ∑ici 19:55, 9 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You make a good point. There is a choice to be made: the article should either describe matrix multiplication in familiar terms and follow this with a more abstract section generalizing it to rings as the scalars, or else it should introduce the concepts of a ring, a centre, a ground ring, etc., then define the matrix multiplication in terms of this. I think that while the second approach may appeal to mathematicians familiar with the concepts of abstract algebra, the bulk of target audience for this article would not be mathematicians, making the first approach more appropriate. — Quondum 20:16, 9 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed with the former (separate, abstract explanations in its own section, keeping the general definition as familiar as possible). Even with just numbers (integers!), matrix multiplication is quite a lot to take in for anyone (at a first read, of course trivial with practice...). That’s without using the abstract terminology and definitions. Definitions through abstract algebra would probably switch off even scientists/engineers who know enough maths for calculations but not pure mathematical theory, never mind a lay reader... F = q(E+v×B) ⇄ ∑ici 20:26, 9 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Examples

Sorry for the late response and then taking extraordinarily long to produce fairly low quality examples anyway... =( I'll just keep updating this section every now and then... Please do feel free to ask about/critisise them. F = q(E+v×B) ⇄ ∑ici 16:27, 13 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for anything you produce along these lines. I had never seen the agenda of physics laid out like you did on your page, and I think I'm going to learn a lot from it. All the physics classes I took were just trees in the forest but never the forest. Rschwieb (talk) 18:17, 13 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

A barnstar for you!

The Editor's Barnstar
Congratulations, Rschwieb, you've recently made your 1,000th edit to articles on English Wikipedia!

Thank you so much for helping improve math-related content on Wikipedia. Your hard work is very much appreciated! Maryana (WMF) (talk) 19:47, 13 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Possible geometric interpretation of tensors?

Hi, recently yourself, F=q(E+v^B), and Quondum, and me briefly talked about tensors and geometry. Also noticed you said here "indices obfuscate the geometry" (couldn't agree more). I have been longing to "draw a tensor" to make clear the geometric interpretation, it’s easy to draw a vector and vector field, but a tensor? Taking the first step, is this a correct possible geometric diagram of a vector transformed by a dyadic to another vector, i.e. if one arrow is a vector, then two arrows for a dyadic (for each pair of directions corresponding to each basis of those directions)? In a geometric context the number of indices corresponds to the number of directions associated with the transformation? (i.e. vectors only need one index for each basis direction, but the dyadics need two - to map the initial basis vectors to final)?

Transformation of a vector a into another b by a dyadic T, shown as matrix multiplication to illustrate the directional transformation of basis vectors from the initial e to final e'. The dyadic basis are the dyadic products of e and e', and the dot (scalar) products remove part of the dyadic basis and the vector basis to yield numbers multiplied by the remaining part of the basis. The result is a change of basis directions.

Analagously for a triadic, would three indices correspond to three directions (etc. up to n order tensors)? Thanks very much for your response, I'm busy but will check every now and then. If this is correct it may be added to the dyadic article. Feel free to criticize wherever I'm wrong. Best, Maschen (talk) 22:29, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, I want to say that I like it and it is interesting, but I don't think it would go well in the article. I think it's a little too original for an encyclopedia. But don't let this cramp your style for pursuing the angle! Rschwieb (talk) 01:42, 28 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I'll not add it to any article, the main intent is to get the interpretation right. Is this actually the right way of "drawing a dyadic", as a set of two-arrow components, or not? Also the reason for picking on dyadics is because the are several 2nd order tensors in physics, which have this geometric idea: usually in the tensor is a property of the material/object in question, and is related to the directional response of one quantity to another, such as
an applied to a material/object of results in in the material/object, given by
angular velocity ω moment of inertia I an angular momentum L
electric field E Electrical conductivity σ a current density flow J
electric field E polarizability α (related is the permittivity ε, Electric susceptibility χE) an induced polarization field P
(obviously there are many more examples) all of which have a similar directional relations to the above diagram (except usually both basis are the standard Cartesian type). Anyway thanks for an encouraging response. I'll also not distract you with this (inessential) favour, I just hope we can both again geometric insight to tensors, and the connection between indices and directions (btw - its not the number of dimensions that concerns me, only directions, in that tensors seem to geometrically be multidirectional quantities). Maschen (talk) 07:11, 28 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Just to warn you, I think you'll find both my geometric sense and my physical sense severely disappointing That said, I will find it pleasant to ponder such thoughts, in an attempt to improving both of those senses. Rschwieb (talk) 21:27, 28 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If I may comment, I suspect some geometric insight may be obtained via a geometric algebra interpretation. Keeping in mind that correspondence is only loose, a dyadic or 2nd-order tensor corresponds roughly with a bivector rather than a pair of vectors, even though an ordered pair of vectors specifies a simple dyadic. There are fewer degrees of freedom in the simple dyadic than in an ordered pair of vectors. So I'd suggest that a dyadic is better interpreted as an oriented 2D disc than two vectors, and a triadic as an oriented 3D element rather than as three vectors etc., but again this is not complete (a dyadic has more dimensions of freedom than an oriented disc has, and thus is more "general": the geometric elements described correspond rigorously to the fully antisymmetric part of a dyadic, triadic etc.). In general, a dyadic can represent a general linear mapping of a vector onto a vector, including dilation (differentially in orthogonal directions) and rotations. Geometrically this is a little difficult to draw component-wise. — Quondum 22:12, 28 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Quondum, I geuss this highlights the problem with my understanding... dyadics, bivectors, 2nd order tensors, linear transformations... seem loosely similar with subtleties I'm not completely familiar with inside out. The oriented disc concept seems to be logical, but what does the oriented disk correspond to? The transformation from one vector to another? (this is such an itchy for me question because I always have to draw things before understanding them, even if its just arrows and shapes...) Maschen (talk) 13:05, 29 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The oriented disc is not a good representation of a general linear transformation (too few degrees of freedom, for one) except in the limited sense of a rotation, but is a more directly geometric concept in the way a vector is. It has magnitude (area) and orientation (including direction around its edge, making it signed), but no specific shape; it is an example of something that can be depicted geometrically. Examples include an oriented parallelogram defined by two edge vectors, torque and angular momentum: pretty much anything you'd calculate conventionally using the cross product of two true vectors. If you want to go into detail it may make sense to continue on your talk page to avoid cluttering Rschwieb's. I'm watching it, so will pick up if you post a question there; you can also attract my attention more immediately on my talk page. — Quondum 16:42, 29 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ok. Thanks/apologies Quondum and Rschwieb, I don't have much more to ask for now. Quondum, feel free to remove my talk page from your watchlist (not active), I may ask on yours in the future... Maschen (talk) 05:28, 30 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Your question of User talk:D.Lazard

I have answered there.

Sincerely D.Lazard (talk) 14:56, 2 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Aplogies and redemption...

sort of, for not updating Mathematical summary of physics recently. On the other hand I just expanded Analytical mechanics to be a summary style article. If you have use for this, I hope it will be helpful. (As you may be able to tell, I tend to concentrate on fundamentals rather than examples). =| F = q(E+v×B)ici 01:56, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Intolerable behaviour by new user:Hublolly

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at WP:ANI regarding the intolerable behaviour by new user:Hublolly. The thread is Intolerable behaviour by new user:Hublolly. Thank you.

See talk:ricci calculus#The wedge product returns... for what I mean (I had to include you by WP:ANI guidelines, sorry...)

F = q(E+v×B)ici 23:04, 9 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Fuck this - User:F=q(E+v^B) and user:Maschen are both thick-dumbasses (not the opposite: thinking smart-asses) and there are probably loads more "editors" like these becuase as I have said thousands of times - they and their edits have fucked up the physics and maths pages leaving a trail of shit for professionals to clean up. Why that way???
What intruges me Rschwieb is that you have a PHD in maths and yet seem to STILL not know very much when asked??? that worries me, hope you don't end up like F and M.
I will hold off editing untill this heat has calmed down. Hublolly (talk) 00:16, 10 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hublolly - according to my tutors even if one has a PHD it still takes several years (10? maybe 15?) before you have proficiency in the subject and can answer anything on the dot. It’s really bad that YOU screwed up every page you have edited, then come along to throw insult to Rschwieb who has a near-infinite amount of knowledge on hard-core mathematical abstractions (which is NOT the easy side of maths) compared to Maschen, me, and yes - even the "invincible you", and given that Rschwieb is a very good-faith, productive, and constructive editor and certainly prepared to engage in discussions to share thoughts on the subject with like-minded people (the opposite of yourself). F = q(E+v×B)ici 00:30, 10 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I DIDN'T intend to persionally attack Rschwieb. Hublolly (talk) 08:32, 10 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I demand that you apologize after calling me a troll (or labelled my behaviour "trollish") on your buddy's talk page, given that I just said I didn't personally attack you. :-(

I also request immediatley that you explicitly clarify your post at "WP:ANI" because I have no idea what this means - do you?

This isn't going away. Hublolly (talk) 13:41, 10 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hublolly - it will vanish. Rschwieb has no reason to answer your dum questions: he didn't "call you a troll" (he did say your behaviour was like trolling) and you already know what you have been doing. What comments about you from others do you to expect, after all you have done??? F = q(E+v×B)ici 16:03, 10 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]