Wikifunctions:Project chat

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@Jdforrester (WMF) at Wikifunctions:Project chat/Archive/2024/03#Criteria for granting "maintainer" rights/editing running functions we were told that the Wikilambda team was not yet ready for community members to be function maintainers. Given the number of recent types created and the fact that things look like they are going smoothly, does that assessment still stand? --DannyS712 (talk) 06:37, 12 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

@DannyS712: It does. Particularly the user interface for creating types isn't nowhere near ready yet. We are aiming to improve our own speed with creating new types, so that there is less of a backlog for this. Is there anything else that you think is holding back the community besides the right for type creation? --DVrandecic (WMF) (talk) 22:21, 12 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

@DVrandecic (WMF) as I noted in the prior discussion my primary motivation was the wikilambda-edit-running-function right so that as new types are created any existing function that should be the new type can easily be updated. --DannyS712 (talk) 23:30, 12 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

@DannyS712 in order to avoid the "first disconnect, then edit, then connect again" dance? --DVrandecic (WMF) (talk) 23:56, 12 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

@DVrandecic (WMF) exactly, though I haven't done that dance in a while, as new types are created its more likely to come up --DannyS712 (talk) 01:53, 13 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

@DannyS712: Thank you for the explanation! Understood. -- DVrandecic (WMF) (talk) 16:48, 13 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

Now that we have Integer (Z16683) ready for use its come up again - most of the stuff we switched to use natural numbers should probably be switched to use integers --DannyS712 (talk) 04:56, 21 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

For many of them I'd prefer to have one version natural numbers and another for integers. Otherwise every natural number operation will need to cast in and out of int all the time. 99of9 (talk) 05:03, 21 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

Sounds reasonable to me :) So9q (talk) 12:30, 15 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

@DVrandecic (WMF) wikilambda-edit-predefined would help us to better document the inbuilt functions by attaching tests (and removing broken inbuilt tests?). --99of9 (talk) 00:57, 13 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

@99of9: Thank you, good point! For now, I'd be happy to act upon a list, so that it's at least done. --DVrandecic (WMF) (talk) 16:49, 13 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

@DVrandecic (WMF) Here's a list from Wikifunctions_talk:Catalogue tagged with "not done" for any that need updates. Feel free to delete the tag when done. Some will need thought if any unconnected test fails any implementation:

• Unquote (Z899) Not done
• Code point equality (Z888) Not done
• Codepoint list to string (Z886) Not done
• Errortype to type (Z885)
• Typed Map (Z883)
• Typed pair (Z882)
• Typed list (Z881) Not done
• Reduce Function (Z876) Not done
• String to codepoint list (Z868) Not done
• Language code to language (Z860) Not done
• Validate against schema (Z831)
• fetch Persistent object (Z828)
• Get envelope from function call (Z823)
• Get second element of a Typed pair (Z822) Not done
• Get first item of a Typed pair (Z821) Not done
• Trigger metadata (Z820)
• Abstract (Z808) Not done
• Reify (Z805) Not done
• Values by keys (Z804)
• Value by key (Z803) Not done
• Echo (Z801) Not done

--99of9 (talk) 03:42, 14 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

This is more difficult than I expected! --DVrandecic (WMF) (talk) 21:16, 17 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

Which difficulties are you encountering most? I find inbuilt functions particularly hard to make tests for because the code is not visible, and the definition is often just a name and some input/output types. But that's also why I want to make more tests available! It looks like you chose Value by key (Z803) to start with, which has some phabricator tasks/bugs, so is perhaps tougher than most. 99of9 (talk) 02:06, 18 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

Hi, I'm a noob in this project. I have created Indian English cardinals,python (Z17100) as an implementation of English cardinal (Z13587). However, the implementation shows some errors for not being consistent with the "million-billion-trillion" system. I thought that English cardinal (Z13587) is applicable for all types of cardinal, but I'm dismayed to find that only short scale is supported here. I'm linking the Z items by analogy of Wikidata's Q and P items. Sbb1413 (talk) 17:53, 20 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

A function has to give the same result for the same input. When you need a different result, you need a different function. I suggest we create the required function for Indian English before deleting this implementation. We could also create a separate function for the traditional English million-based system but I don’t know whether this system is in current use by any English-speaking community. GrounderUK (talk) 19:58, 20 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

Since they can be used for both the Julian and the Gregorian calendar, I think it would make sense to give them a slightly more generic name. It's about this Type: Gregorian calendar month (Z16098). Thoughts? --Denny (talk) 20:50, 22 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

In English, we could just call it “month” or “calendar month”. I wouldn’t call it “Roman” because “Roman calendar” might equally refer to one of its pre-Julian forms. (Whether the intercalary month should be considered a thirteenth month is an open question, but the intercalary month was a short month and February was always the shortest month. A function to return the number of days in a pre-Julian month would be problematical for February (23 or 24) and for the additional month before March (27 or 28) because scholars disagree.) GrounderUK (talk) 08:36, 23 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

I have similar concerns to Al. I suggest "Gregorian and Julian month", or if that is too long, some kind of abbreviation expanded in the description. --99of9 (talk) 01:06, 27 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

We just created Day of the week (Z17402) following the Type proposal. Have fun with the Type! --DVrandecic (WMF) (talk) 22:27, 25 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

There are now proposals for Gregorian calendar dates, days of the year, years, and eras, a set of Types that are related to each other. Feedback would be very valuable, so that we hopefully get this right! --DVrandecic (WMF) (talk) 20:45, 26 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

Hi all! As I already said in my previous message, we have worked in the last weeks to produce a basic presentation about Wikifunctions and Abstract Wikipedia that could be freely reusable and editable by you users, in case you were thinking of holding a presentation about our project(s) but needed some help with it.

I'm happy to announce that the version 1.0 of the slidedeck is now freely available and downloadable! Feel free to download it in the format you like and translate it or modify it to your liking. You can also comment on slides, if you want to give us feedback or you need clarifications.

Also, be aware that most of the slides have speaker notes: we did it to allow people to better understand what was the idea behind the introduction and most of the image-only slides. Notes are also freely reusable, modifiable and translatable, of course.

I wanted to personally thank the team for their feedback and internal evaluation of the slidedeck, as well as users Msz2001, Jens Ohlig and Kristbaum for their incredible and extremely valuable feedback. I hope more will come in the future from you!

Now it is your turn: what do you think of it? Does it look helpful? Also, please remember to upload your presentation to our Commons category!

One last note: unfortunately, since Commons doesn't allow us to upload .odp or .ppt files, we can only host it on Google Docs for the time being. We know this could be a problem for some of you, so if you need a copy of the slidedeck in an open format, please reach out to me via email, and I'll send it to you. Thanks for your patience! Sannita (WMF) (talk) 14:06, 28 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

Good to see. Slide 5 potentially makes it look like English has got it together and has nothing to benefit from this. I've even heard people suggest that it's easier to all learn English and read en-wp. A picture I use to counter this idea is the map generated by this query. These are politicians with a Wikipedia article written about them in only one language, coloured according to what that language is, and located by their birthplace. It shows the segregation of knowledge into local languages. --99of9 (talk) 05:31, 29 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

@99of9 Thanks, this is really a good example. I'll think about using it to show the meaning of "unevenly distributed knowledge". Sannita (WMF) (talk) 18:03, 29 June 2024 (UTC)Reply

Thank you for sharing that 🤩 So9q (talk) 17:40, 18 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

Hi all! Due to a last moment unavailability of most of the team, the Volunteer's Corner will be postponed by one week, same time.

We will meet on July 8, at 17:30 UTC at the same place. Sorry for the disruption! Sannita (WMF) (talk) 16:42, 1 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

We currently experience a lot of issues running functions on Wikifunctions. We are investigating. The main task in Phabricator to follow our work is T368892. We apologise for the inconvenience. Because of the US holiday and other schedule issues, we do not expect the situation to be resolved quickly, but expect issues to continue at least into next week. We still have not uncovered the root cause of the current problems, which makes predictions of when it will be resolved challenging. Thank you for understanding. --DVrandecic (WMF) (talk) 02:52, 4 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

Thank you all for your patience! It looks like we diagnosed and found a temporary solution for the issue causing a lot of failed function calls and failed tests lately. For that, we had to temporarily switch off the richer metadata in function calls. We still need to find out the root cause of the issue. We will be working on that, on re-enabling the richer metadata, and on improved production monitoring. You should see an immediate, significant improvement in the stability of Wikifunctions. Please let us know if that isn't what you experience. Thank you for your patience, and your reports, they have been super helpful in diagnosing the issue at hand. --DVrandecic (WMF) (talk) 19:06, 9 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

Typed lists were not yet fully supporting elements of types other than Booleans and strings. We have extended typed list support to now support all types that we support, which are natural number and integer, sign, Gregorian and Igbo calendar month, and day of the week. In the future, whenever we introduce a new type, typed lists of that type should be automatically available.

Please let us know if you have trouble using typed lists of the newly defined types. --DVrandecic (WMF) (talk) 01:12, 11 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

This is good news! I’ve not had time to look very closely but it seems to be working well!

Where do we now stand with lists where the elements have different types? I’m thinking of raising a Feature request to have a Typed list’s element type default to that of the first element rather than Z1. In the user interface, we can set the type to Z1 if we want to add an element of a different type but in a composition we currently have to choose Z1 if the function expects either mixed types or all elements to have the same (as yet unknown) type. We should be able to distinguish between these two cases (at least).

(A third case is a mix of only specific types. It would be useful to restrict a list to Integers and Natural numbers, for example. Currently, an integer list would not allow a Natural number to be added without explicit conversion. Maybe an “append with conditional conversion to integer” function is called for? But that is just a start…)

Any thoughts, anyone? GrounderUK (talk) 11:06, 12 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

Untyped list are currently not supported. We don't have a near-term plan to support them for implementations. The issue is that several Wikifunctions types might be mapped to the same type in a given programming language, so we cannot automatically figure out which type to use for the conversion. When we eventually support it, we will likely introduce a "Wikifunctions object" type for each programming language. --DVrandecic (WMF) (talk) 19:40, 16 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

I wonder if this is a partial/temporary solution to the mapping problem: Always map to the most general WF type that the programming language type can correspond to. So, for example, if [1,2,3] came out of a python implementation, it would return [integer,1,2,3]. Then any function that runs on untyped lists could at least get a result from the generic implementation. Then when another composition wanted to call that function for a specific typed list, it would just need to map the result to the specific type. So reverse_months(list) = map(reverse_untyped(list),int_to_month). -- 99of9 (talk) 02:07, 17 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

Huh? I thought an untyped list was already an array of objects in code. Maybe I’ve been dreaming but I’m pretty sure that after evaluation an untyped list is converted into a correctly typed list whenever all its elements have the same type. See Reverse (untyped) list of Natural numbers (Z13725), for example. Anyway, if mixed-type lists are not currently supported, defaulting the list’s type to the type of the first element should be the current behaviour. GrounderUK (talk) 21:55, 16 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

phab:T370028 We (mainly User:99of9) have now discovered errors from implementations in JavaScript or Python when the function’s return type is Z1/object rather than a Typed list and the implementations return an array of integers or numbers. GrounderUK (talk) 10:19, 15 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

As above: untyped lists, or even untyped functions are not expected to work for code implementations. --DVrandecic (WMF) (talk) 19:40, 16 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

There is a new update for Abstract Wikipedia and Wikifunctions. Please, come and read it!

In this issue, we discuss our current draft about Type proposals for accessing Lexemes, and we take a look at the latest software developments.

Want to catch up with the previous updates? Check our archive!

Enjoy the reading! -- User:Sannita (WMF) (talk) 10:21, 12 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

On Echo (Z801), passing in void (Z24) causes an error, like on echo test case for void (Z17603). Is this intended behavior or a bug? -- ScienceD90 (talk) 12:46, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

A bug. -- DVrandecic (WMF) (talk) 19:28, 16 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

There is a new update for Abstract Wikipedia and Wikifunctions. Please, come and read it!

In this issue, we present you the results of a research about how to integrate Wikifunctions and Wikipedia, and we take a look at the latest software developments.

Want to catch up with the previous updates? Check our archive!

Enjoy the reading! -- User:Sannita (WMF) (talk) 13:33, 19 July 2024 (UTC)Reply